Valve, your thoughts on why they hate the PS3?

And most of those devs were first party, or second party and therefore funded by Sony. Their opinion doesn't count because they HAVE to develop for the PS3.

DarkLink77

I stated this in my other post, but I'll reiterate. I believe that Valve's perception of the PS3 is wrong. I get excited by the thought of being challenged and not having everything hand-fed to me, so I would definitely try programming and experimenting it (if I was a dev). Even if they have to develop for the PS3, one must note the incredible improvement in the quality of both exclusives and multiplats on the PS3. Although the developers might be a little bias since they are affiliated with Sony, the results speak for themselves. The leap from say, Uncharted 1 to Uncharted 2 is quite amazing and to me, shows that the capabilities of the Playstation 3 still have a long way to go from being realized. The games that have been released in the past few months have been very impressive and I'm very excited to see where developers can go with the PS3 hardware in the next few years.

I get excited by the thought of being challenged and not having everything hand-fed to me, so I would definitely try programming and experimenting it (if I was a dev). shoryuken_

They didn't say anything offensive about the community. They just said XBL's was better. How it that offensive?DarkLink77

The exact words were the 360 community is "head and shoulders above PS3." That is a pretty inflammatory comment.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

I stated this in my other post, but I'll reiterate. I believe that Valve's perception of the PS3 is wrong. I get excited by the thought of being challenged and not having everything hand-fed to me, so I would definitely try programming and experimenting it (if I was a dev). Even if they have to develop for the PS3, one must note the incredible improvement in the quality of both exclusives and multiplats on the PS3. Although the developers might be a little bias since they are affiliated with Sony, the results speak for themselves. The leap from say, Uncharted 1 to Uncharted 2 is quite amazing and to me, shows that the capabilities of the Playstation 3 still have a long way to go from being realized. The games that have been released in the past few months have been very impressive and I'm very excited to see where developers can go with the PS3 hardware in the next few years.

shoryuken_

Suppose you had a job and you had to create progress reports. There was new tech out that would let you create those reports differently, and it would take a lot of work, but they'd look good. Your current tech allows to create better reports, and doesn't require nearly as much work. Which would you pick?

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] They didn't say anything offensive about the community. They just said XBL's was better. How it that offensive?shoryuken_

The exact words were the 360 community is "head and shoulders above PS3." That is a pretty inflammatory comment.

How is that infalmatory? Did you think they could mean something about how their games are received by that community, or maybe the way Live works? If I say, the Mustang is head and shoulders better than the Camaro, did I just insult the Camaro or praise the Mustang?

No, you wouldn't if it would put in risk your job, would you?IronBass

Why would I be risking my job..?

[QUOTE="IronBass"]No, you wouldn't if it would put in risk your job, would you?shoryuken_

Why would I be risking my job..?

Here's Valve's logic: "Why waste time and money developing for the PS3 when the PC preforms better, and is easier to work with? And we can simply port to the 360 extremely cheaply?" I see where you're coming from, but I don't see how their perception is "wrong." Suppose you had a job and you had to create progress reports. There was new tech out that would let you create those reports differently, and it would take a lot of work, but they'd look good. Your current tech allows to create better reports, and doesn't require nearly as much work. Which would you pick? DarkLink77

Their perception is not necessarily wrong..that was bad wording on my part. The impression I get from Valve is that they want to take the easy way out, which comes at odds with my personal nature. Although developing for the PS3 may be harder than it is for the 360, there have been developers who have found success and created some real masterpieces on the system. I'm not one to tell Valve what to do and nobody can force them to create games for the PS3, but it is possible to opt out of developing for the console without sounding like complete fanboys.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] They didn't say anything offensive about the community. They just said XBL's was better. How it that offensive?shoryuken_

The exact words were the 360 community is "head and shoulders above PS3." That is a pretty inflammatory comment.

The context wasn't meant to be taken so harshly though. The 360 community is above the PS3 one in many aspects. From buying habits to communication, to playing habits. Its not meant to say, "you're inferior", its meant to say, "for our goals you are not the tye of community that best suits us". The problem is the bottom line is Valve won't develop on the PS3 and as such the comment is taken negatively. In itself its harmless. People talk like its Epic talking trash or something, these are harmless statements.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Here's Valve's logic: "Why waste time and money developing for the PS3 when the PC preforms better, and is easier to work with? And we can simply port to the 360 extremely cheaply?" I see where you're coming from, but I don't see how their perception is "wrong." Suppose you had a job and you had to create progress reports. There was new tech out that would let you create those reports differently, and it would take a lot of work, but they'd look good. Your current tech allows to create better reports, and doesn't require nearly as much work. Which would you pick? shoryuken_

Their perception is not necessarily wrong..that was bad wording on my part. The impression I get from Valve is that they want to take the easy way out, which comes at odds with my personal nature. Although developing for the PS3 may be harder than it is for the 360, there have been developers who have found success and created some real masterpieces on the system. I'm not one to tell Valve what to do and nobody can force them to create games for the PS3, but it is possible to opt out of developing for the console without sounding like complete fanboys.

If they think they can't deliver the same quality... they mean it. Valve doesn't rush games. A fanboy says things like "OMG PS3 SUX IT HAS NO GOOD GAMES 360 HAS BETTER HARDWARE LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. LAWL."

[QUOTE="Jynxzor"]Programing a game from PC to 360 is a million times easier than PC to PS3 it seems, therefor Valve is rather upset about it being hard.GreenGoblin2099

Yup, and because they can make a quick buckout ofthat hard work.

Investment in time and money versus return in profits.

Smart business, has nothing to do with gaming.

Regarding the possibility of me losing a job: I'm not really sure. Like I said earlier, I am not telling Valve what to do or what not to do. My main issue is with their remarks about the PS3.

About Valve: You guys have a point, maybe I am overreacting a little. I still don't like what they said though.

valve had already proved to themselves that they have reached their skills and limitation developing games. they couldn't get any of their games to run well on the ps3 and rewriting their engine would prove that they CANT do it. it's too hard and too challenging. valve is starting to age they are starting to fall off the ladder while other developers exceed. activition able to put it out on both pc, ps3, and 360 for their modern warfare 2 without breaking a sweat. the game play better and more fun than any of valve's current franchises. activitionmassively >>>>>>>>>>>>> valve !!!!! we got a new sheriff in town.

iwasgood2u

[QUOTE="ManicAce"]They don't hate anything, and they aren't lazy. There are a lot of companies that make PC/360 multiplats and ignore PS3, Valve is hardly alone in that. The reasons we all know already, PS3 is different, and as such more expensive to develop for. Since not all devs have unlimited resources they have to prioritize, it's just good business.Dystopian-X

You may call them lazy sure, but why would their go out their way when they are doing so well with just PC/360? Just to please a lowest common denominator that by the looks of it doesn't even appareciate their games that much?

Another thing,

Why do Cows care if its not on the PS3?

Don't all Cows have high end PCs anyway?. Usually when the debate of a multiplatform comes up and it's on the Xbox360/PC they just say I'll get it for PC.

Once again these are the typical excuses.

Blame lazy Devs

Blame Casuals for why PS3 is where it is.

claim Teh power of the Cell, Blu-ray, graphics kings, but hide behind and fall back on the PC when the PS3 comes up short against the Xbox360.

Xbox360 had a one year head start.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]Deciding to not develope on a certain system is not laziness.. Laziness would be developing a broken or sloppy port on it.. This is called business in which they think the calculated risk is not worth what they will get in return.. shoryuken_

Although Valve may not like the console, that does not give them a green light to make offensive comments about the PS3 and its community. The things they say are very rude and are expected to be heard in something like System Wars, not from one of the most successful companies in the gaming industry. It would be fine if they said, "I don't like it" or it's "a hassle to develop for." The comments that followed were completely unnecessary.

I think that the PS3 being "difficult" and "annoying to work with" as opposed to "complex" and "full of potential" are two different ways of looking at the same problem. I am not a dev, but speaking from a personal standpoint, I love the idea of a challenge or a puzzle and look at development of the PS3 as a goldmine just waiting to be uncovered. I'm also more inclined to think this way after seeing the enormous improvement from launch games on the Playstation 3 to titles coming out now such as Uncharted 2, Demon's Souls, etc. In my opinion, I think that Valve has the wrong outlook regarding the PS3. Then again, if they determine that there is too much effort and risk involved in developing for Sony's console, that is their choice. However, they should keep the commentary to themselves. They make the rest of the industry look bad.

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

Well, yeah. I thought Valve cared about the gaming community more than any other developer and wanted to help gamers? If that was true they wouldn't shun a console.

argryqwe

Dude they're not charity workers...they're not going to port their games to the PS3 out of the goodness of their hearts. Like any company in the video game industry they face some very harsh economic realities, and the good will of the PS3 community isn't going to magically pay their bills.

Who's offending who?

[QUOTE="argryqwe"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

Dude they're not charity workers...they're not going to port their games to the PS3 out of the goodness of their hearts. Like any company in the video game industry they face some very harsh economic realities, and the good will of the PS3 community isn't going to magically pay their bills.

Who's offending who?

Cows are just mad that they wont be able to play Episode 3 :D

Stringerboy

They can just get it for their PCs like they normally do.

I don't see what's the problem?:D

[QUOTE="Stringerboy"]

Cows are just mad that they wont be able to play Episode 3 :D

AdmiralBison

They can just get it for their PCs like they normally do.

I don't see what's the problem?:D

Assuming they have a PC capable of playing it

Well there are various reasons of course, like

- Valve is made up of various ex MS employees, which would likelly mean a loyalty to them.

- PS consoles are notoriously hard to develop for, Valve makes games mainly for PC which makes it even harder for them when the 360 is easier to develop for as a console made by a company known for software and computers.

- Gabe Newell once insulted the PS3 back in early 2007 when it wasn't doing so hot, making games for them now would mean swallowing pride for them I'd guess.

- PS3 doesn't have the install base of the 360, and while it isn't too far behind, it might be seen as an acceptable loss to them.

- EA is allowed to make ports of their games for the PS3, such as in the case of The Orange Box.

- Valve is kinda lazy, from the never ending delays, to the lack of console love when the PC is jsut easier to develop for. It doesn't make them a worse company, though laziness seems synonymous with Valve, even if they aren't too lazy and still make some great games.

Eh... I would never play a Valve game on any console, personally.

[QUOTE="iwasgood2u"]

valve had already proved to themselves that they have reached their skills and limitation developing games. they couldn't get any of their games to run well on the ps3 and rewriting their engine would prove that they CANT do it. it's too hard and too challenging. valve is starting to age they are starting to fall off the ladder while other developers exceed. activition able to put it out on both pc, ps3, and 360 for their modern warfare 2 without breaking a sweat. the game play better and more fun than any of valve's current franchises. activitionmassively >>>>>>>>>>>>> valve !!!!! we got a new sheriff in town.

every body calling valve lazy on this board should really quit, none of you are developers, you don't know how to do there job so quite frankly you don't have the right or the credibility to make assumptions about them,if you can't do there job you have no right to critisise,and so what if Valve said the 360 community was head and shoulders above the rest, did anybody stop to think that they maybe right about that?heaven forbid that xox live actually fits with Valves business model far better than the godlike PSN,and as for gabe newell , yeah he could have worded it a lot better, but he is entitled to his opinion, and the PS3 is an inanimate object,it's not going to be offended, and why would yo care so much about valve making games for your system, apparently they produce rubbish games, they are a one trick pony,etc,etc,all in all this subject is getting very dry, it's been going on for ages and i have yet to see a shred of proof that valve are lazy.delta3074

I didn't call them lazy.

unfortunatly, this is the only thing this thread comes down too

every body calling valve lazy on this board should really quit, none of you are developers, you don't know how to do there job so quite frankly you don't have the right or the credibility to make assumptions about them,if you can't do there job you have no right to critisise,and so what if Valve said the 360 community was head and shoulders above the rest, did anybody stop to think that they maybe right about that?heaven forbid that xox live actually fits with Valves business model far better than the godlike PSN,and as for gabe newell , yeah he could have worded it a lot better, but he is entitled to his opinion, and the PS3 is an inanimate object,it's not going to be offended, and why would yo care so much about valve making games for your system, apparently they produce rubbish games, they are a one trick pony,etc,etc,all in all this subject is getting very dry, it's been going on for ages and i have yet to see a shred of proof that valve are lazy.delta3074

1. Valve is a PC dev .......... they don't like the PS3's architecture 2. Multiplats sell less on PS3 3. Making a PS3 specific engine isn't worth it 4. Valve games are made to be played on a PCNonstop-Madness

Eh... I would never play a Valve game on any console, personally.

psn8214

Why is this even an issue, since after all, the cows can all play the Valve games on those super deluxe Radeon HD 4850 PCs that every single one of them has anyway? Why should they want the games for their PS3s? ;)

- Valve is made up of various ex MS employees, which would likelly mean a loyalty to them.

SPYDER0416

- Valve is kinda lazy, from the never ending delays, to the lack of console love when the PC is jsut easier to develop for. It doesn't make them a worse company, though laziness seems synonymous with Valve, even if they aren't too lazy and still make some great games.

SPYDER0416

[QUOTE="SPYDER0416"]

- Valve is made up of various ex MS employees, which would likelly mean a loyalty to them.

Teufelhuhn

- Valve is kinda lazy, from the never ending delays, to the lack of console love when the PC is jsut easier to develop for. It doesn't make them a worse company, though laziness seems synonymous with Valve, even if they aren't too lazy and still make some great games.

SPYDER0416

Yes, I'm not sure why they would be so loyal to Microsoft. They are ex-Microsoft employees for a reason.

From my limited understanding of PC development, it isn't necessarily easier as Teuf said. You have to make sure that the game runs on thousands of different configurations of PCs, various operating systems, etc. Since you have to account for all of these variables, one could argue that PC development is harder than it is for consoles. Regarding your comment about laziness (spyder), I'd rather have a delayed game over an incomplete and rushed game anyday. It's not like Valve is the only one who postpones their release dates; companies such as Nintendo and Blizzard do this all the time. Ever heard of them? lol.

@Teuf: I've been trying to learn a little bit of programming on my own, and there is no way that Valve is lazy. The stuff they are doing is probably hundreds if not thousands of times more complicated than what I am experimenting with right now, yet they still manage to create some of the most iconic games in the industry. There is a lot of work that goes into game development that many of us on this site (myself included) are largely ignorant of.

By the way, I stalked the crap out of your blog, and I see you are working for a game dev right now. :P Do you mind if I PM you later today? I've been considering switching my major recently and I have a lot of questions.

Why is this even an issue, since after all, the cows can all play the Valve games on those super deluxe Radeon HD 4850 PCs that every single one of them has anyway? Why should they want the games for their PS3s? ;)

AdobeArtist

[QUOTE="RadecSupreme"]

[QUOTE="awuilfj"]http://www.playstationuniversity.com/the-blackbuster-special-fanboy-devs-valve-need-to-stfu-1352/DarkLink77

That gave me a good laugh. Its true though.

[QUOTE="IronBass"][QUOTE="iwasgood2u"]

That gave me a good laugh. Its true though.

awuilfj

They never insulted the PS3 community, nor the developers. They "insulted" the PS3.

Half-Life's influence on the industry is not debatable. I don't care how much you like it.

Do you mind if I PM you later today?

shoryuken_

Yeah sure, go for it.

The company also insulted the ps3 community and the developers that put time into the ps3 so it is only deserved it. Valve as developers aren't anything special. The only valve games that i like are cs which were created by other people and portal which was a nebacular drop rip-off...do not get me started on that generic shooter HL or zombies vs humans(tremulous anyone?). Even killing floor is better than L4D2.awuilfj

Putting personal tastes aside, Valve is a far (I mean far) above average developer. The impact they have had on this industry is not something most companies can claim. Half Life 1 and 2 have some of the best FPS single player experiences available, CS is/was the definitive online multiplayer shooter, Steam is a big advancement in digital distribution, etc.

[QUOTE="awuilfj"][QUOTE="IronBass"] I think its funny that a site run by a bunch of fanboys is accusing one of the most respected developers in the industry of being fanboys, all the while insulting the company. DarkLink77

They never insulted the PS3 community, nor the developers. They "insulted" the PS3.

Half-Life's influence on the industry is not debatable. I don't care how much you like it.

[QUOTE="AdobeArtist"]

Why is this even an issue, since after all, the cows can all play the Valve games on those super deluxe Radeon HD 4850 PCs that every single one of them has anyway? Why should they want the games for their PS3s? ;)

anshul89

grrrrr, don't be splitting hairs with me. You know what I meant :P

It boils down to this.

The PC and 360 are both easier and cheaper to develop for together

The PS3's versions are most likely going to sell the least.

Why put out more effort and more money for less return???

quake 3 is a good fps still one of my favs and they did insult the ps3 community and the devs. They said the ps3 is a waste of EVERYONES time. So they are calling stupid the people developing on it(multiplats and exclusives) and people playing on it. They also said the 360 community is heads and shoulders better than the ps3 community...haha watch this video. http://www.playstationuniversity.com/the-blackbuster-special-fanboy-devs-valve-need-to-stfu-1352/awuilfj

Regardless of their statements, that still does not make them an average or lazy developer. ;)

Yeah sure, go for it.

Teufelhuhn

Alright, I need to type them up. This might take me a while..I have A LOT of questions.. :P

They said the ps3 is a waste of EVERYONES time. awuilfj

Gabe Newell said that because he didn't think that investing time and money into PS3 tech was going to result in a significant payout for devs, either in the current or future generations. Obviously plently of developers disagreed with him (and continue to do so), but I don't see how that's "insulting". It was just his opinion based on personal experience and knowledge...it's nothing personal.

[QUOTE="awuilfj"]quake 3 is a good fps still one of my favs and they did insult the ps3 community and the devs. They said the ps3 is a waste of EVERYONES time. So they are calling stupid the people developing on it(multiplats and exclusives) and people playing on it. They also said the 360 community is heads and shoulders better than the ps3 community...haha watch this video. http://www.playstationuniversity.com/the-blackbuster-special-fanboy-devs-valve-need-to-stfu-1352/shoryuken_

Regardless of their statements, that still does not make them an average or lazy developer. ;)

In my opinion they were before these statements. They remind me of blizzard they make average games and convince critics to give good scores...therefore brainwashing people that they are good games. When actually good games like X3 terran conflict, ARMA 2, etc are disregarded.awuilfj

Darn it, he said "in my opinion." :P

Gabe Newell said that because he didn't think that investing time and money into PS3 tech was going to result in a significant payout for devs, either in the current or future generations. Obviously plently of developers disagreed with him (and continue to do so), but I don't see how that's "insulting". It was just his opinion based on personal experience and knowledge...it's nothing personal.

Teufelhuhn

He could've definitely made his word choice better lol